Game of Thrones Season 08 Thread [spoilers]

[jigos]

8 damn years and the end of days is finally upon us. Who's going to be watching? Which contender do you think is going to win the Iron Throne? What are your thoughts on.. everything GoT?

Needless to say: Spoilers -- for the TV show. If you're going to mention story points from any other Game of Thrones media (including the novels), do use spoiler tags.

 

[Lynk Former]

I haven't watched a single episode of Game of Thrones... But I will marathon the entire series when it's all out.

 

[Hawkeye]

oh god,

*goes turns off TV, and goes to read abook

 

[igyman]

Eh... the show went to shit in the last few seasons, especially S7, so I'll be watching S8 mostly out of sheer stubbornness to see it through. I fully expect Jon Snow to end up on the throne, the setup at the end of S7 was all about that.

Spoiler

Whether his aunt ends up as his wife or dies along the way, remains to be seen.

 

[jigos]

Eh... the show went to shit in the last few seasons, especially S7,

I agree. S07 was shockingly bad. To me the reason was very apparent: they were going way too fast. They fit like ~3 seasons of story into one shortened season. Plots and characters were not developed to anything remotely resembling a smooth progression, which is in stark (lol) contrast to the previous seasons - and what makes the show great. I really hope they figured this out and don't make that mistake again for S08.

I fully expect Jon Snow to end up on the throne, the setup at the end of S7 was all about that.

Spoiler

Whether his aunt ends up as his wife or dies along the way, remains to be seen.

I think Jon winning the Iron Throne is something too much resembling of a happy ending, for George RR Martin to give us. It's like, 'if you think you're getting a happy ending out of this show, you've got another thing coming'
At most, it'll be a terribly mixed/bittersweet ending imo.

As for who will win -- I want Jon to win, but I think Tyrion and Varys will win. I have a feeling this story is going to be about the end of monarchy and the development of modern political structure in Westeros. I have a feeling Tyrion and Varys.. are going to actually sabotage things between Danaerys and Jon, and perhaps the entire war for the Throne, in order to usher in a new paradigm of democracy, etc.

These are my opinions from only watching the show. I haven't read the books, and don't intend to - because I'd prefer to be attached to the show, not the books.

 

[Kyuu]

I'm not interested in it at all, never was. My mum used to watched it and I would just sleep through whole episodes to keep her company.

I do like the memes though.

 

[Lynk Former]

Once I actually do watch the entire series, I'll get back to ya'll

 

[jigos]

The season is off to a very good start. The criminal pacing issues that were in the last season, aren't present here. The series has always been about the characters, and they are really, really focusing on that right now and it's fantastic.

Next episode is going to be a wringer. I can feel it.

 

[Niner]

They really kinda shit the bed after the last episode. Episode 2 was the high water mark where they gave the audience the catharsis and happy feels right before the big battle... then everything went way way downhill from there.

 

[jigos]

A lot of people seem to be complaining about e04, but I actually found it pretty decent. It seemed to me to be a return to GoT-form to some mild extent after the clusterfuck that was the entirety of s07. I'm not sure what people are pissed off about?

I found e03 to bet bit of a letdown. It was supposed to be 'the longest depiction of a battle in cinematic history', dethroning The Lord of the Rings' Two Towers -- and while it may have in fact been long, it did not come close to the quality of LotR's battles. It wasn't written very well either:
Plot-armor. Plot armor everywhere. Not to mention terrible military decisions.

 

[igyman]

I'm not sure what people are pissed off about?

The impression I get is that people have problems with plot armor, illogical and stupid decisions or events, out-of-character behaviour (or behaviour that completely throws any previous character development out of the window), no payoff for certain major plot points and setups and the focus on fanservice, shock value and subversion of expectations, rather than quality writing. At least I'm in that bunch. I'm too stubborn to quit with two episodes left, but I don't really like where things are going and, more importantly, how they are being done.

 

[jigos]

I haven't read the criticisms, but the more I think of it, the more absurdities come to my mind.
Such as,

Spoiler

• Why the fuck did she dive at the unknown dragon-rending superweapons
• I would expect Dany to react a lot stronger to Rhaegal's death. She just was sort of like, ">:-("
• Every subseqent shot misses Drogon. Right.
• Did no one think to ask Bran or Arya for help in killing Cersei? One's a future-seeing psychic with literal super-powers, the other is a nigh-magical assassin. In general, I found the handling of Bran and Arya's activities to be really annoying. It seems to me the writers specifically avoided the kind of 'reveal' conversations, where they disseminate the facts that they're basically superheroes now. Other characters seem to know but also not really acknowledge it
  • Going back to e03, I found Arya and Bran's utilization in the battle to be really unsatisfying. Arya's kill was just a plot-armor deus-ex strike. It would have been much better if she actually used Faceless tactics, like say, wearing the face of a Wight to get close to the Night King or something. And Bran could have warged into an animal and fought or something. How cool would it have been if he could control the undead (since they're even more mindless than animals)?
• With that many ballistae, and archers on the wall, Cersei could have obliterated Dany right at the meeting. They could have started by targeting the stationary-ass Drogon before he could retaliate

I suspect this is a The Last Jedi situation where it sort of seems fine at first glance, but absolutely falls to pieces the moment you spend more than 2 minutes thinking about the plot. I doubt s08 is anywhere near as bad as TLJ tho

What I did appreciate was the tone of the episode. The helpless sense of foreboding when you know things are going to go to shit and are not going to get a happy ending. It felt like old GoT.

out-of-character behaviour (or behaviour that completely throws any previous character development out of the window), no payoff for certain major plot points and setups and the focus on fanservice

Can you elaborate on these?

 

[igyman]

Can you elaborate on these?

I'll try:

• out-of-character behaviour - two examples come to mind - Jaime Lannister and Daenerys. Jaime is a character that had quite a bit of development over the course of the story. In episode 4 of this season, he does something that seems to indicate that he's ready to take that final step and finally get over his sister (I'm talking about his relationship with Brienne), but ultimately all his character development goes out the window and he decides to go back to her and the moment I'm referring to ends up being nothing more than cheap fanservice.
  Then we have Daenerys - a character that had both kind and cruel moments over the course of the story, but up until last season, you could argue that she was never cruel to someone who didn't deserve it. During her conquests on Essos, I don't remember her using the "bow to me or die" argument or killing someone who wasn't an absolute scumbag deserving of death. It's as if from the moment she stepped her foot on Westeros, she forgot all her good intentions and started thinking "I want that throne at all costs" and it has become more and more emphasized this season. There are many other smaller examples, like Jon not giving a fuck about Ghost to even properly say goodbye, or Arya giving a fuck about... ahem... fucking, but Jaime and Dany come off as very easy examples of major out-of-character behavior.
  
  
• no payoff for certain major plot points and setups - the easiest example is the White Walkers and the Night King. A threat that was being set up since the very first episode of season one. They were a mystery that most people didn't even believe existed, but were described as a very real and pretty much ultimate threat to everyone, if they get past the Wall. Well, they got past the Wall, but they didn't get very far, despite their vast army of undying soldiers. And the cost of stopping them wasn't really felt. No explanation was given for the Night King's motivation, beyond some arbitrary rambling from Bran and some small bits and a flashback of his creation in one of the previous seasons. He ended up being evil for evil's sake and just wanted to kill everything because he's evil. He also ended up not being that dangerous, considering he was offed in the first major battle on the "civilized" side of the Wall.
  Another smaller example, specific to this season is the subplot for Bronn being hired by Cersei to kill off her brothers. It could have been an opportunity to develop his character a bit more, for him to maybe question whether he should do it because maybe he started considering them friends. Maybe we could have got some tension from that subplot that way and have him make a decision and live (or die) with the consequences of it, but the subplot was only there so he could casually show up in one scene, make an arbitrary deal and make his exit from the show.
  
  
• focus on fanservice - I'm not sure I need to elaborate on this one. There are numerous examples, some I've already mentioned or implied in point 1), but I guess I could add a few more - Tormund is basically a walking fanservice/comedy relief character at this point. The little Mormont girl getting a big, important death scene, because she's popular with the audience, even though her character is pretty much a one-dimensional tough kid. Arya getting nekkid (not really sure which fans wanted to see that, but I'm sure there are some), etc.

That's all I've got at this point. (Sorry about the wall 'o' text )

 

[jigos]

but ultimately all his character development goes out the window and he decides to go back to her and the moment I'm referring to ends up being nothing more than cheap fanservice.

I actually disagree -- I thought Jaime's arc was quite fine. It was not about him changing, it was about him coming to terms and accepting the disparate parts of himself - the honor-focussed one and also the supremely selfish and immoral one.

Then we have Daenerys

It's as if from the moment she stepped her foot on Westeros, she forgot all her good intentions and started thinking "I want that throne at all costs" and it has become more and more emphasized this season.

Completely agree; see below

There are many other smaller examples, like Jon not giving a fuck about Ghost to even properly say goodbye

Agree

Arya giving a fuck about... ahem... fucking

Are you saying her curiosity about sex was OOC, or her rejection of Gendry?

No explanation was given for the Night King's motivation, beyond some arbitrary rambling from Bran and some small bits and a flashback of his creation in one of the previous seasons. He ended up being evil for evil's sake and just wanted to kill everything because he's evil.

Agree

He also ended up not being that dangerous, considering he was offed in the first major battle on the "civilized" side of the Wall.

Ahh-- well, he was juggernaut-ing and the only reason he got stopped was one hell of a Deus Ex Machina.

Another smaller example, specific to this season is the subplot for Bronn being hired by Cersei to kill off her brothers. It could have been an opportunity to develop his character a bit more, for him to maybe question whether he should do it because maybe he started considering them friends. Maybe we could have got some tension from that subplot that way and have him make a decision and live (or die) with the consequences of it, but the subplot was only there so he could casually show up in one scene, make an arbitrary deal and make his exit from the show.

I actually disagree with this. I though the scene with Bronn was great. IMO you there was in fact a lot of tension in the Way Bronn confronted them. It was very clear he liked them a lot - if it was any other situation, he would have been a lot more nonchalant in offing them. But here he was squirming in his boots the entire time, while at simultaneously displaying bravado. His body language and demeanor was like, 'Fuck you guys for making things so complicated by making me like you, now make me a better offer so I don't have to kill you goddamnit!'

* * *

I thought you were being a bit harsh before, @igyman, when you said that the only reason you were continuing to watch was because you made it this far. But merciful god, today's episode was so damn bad that I had brain cells die when when watching it

Spoiler

• The development of Dany's character belongs in the class of the most significant and gravituous things possible in the writing of the show. Whatever they do, they better had damn well made sure to do it as best as they possibly can. I don't like the specific idea they're going with, but the show is all about tragedy, so fine. But the rationale, execution, and presentation of it is SO terrible. E.g. Jon not going to have a proper therapeutic/emotional conversation with Dany to pull her back from the brink, the way anyone does when they see family in a bad mental state, as opposed to an awkward superficial conversation parroting the same point she defeated the last time; her weak-ass reason of 'let it be fear then'; plan-changing casual genocide, etc.
• The collection of Scorpions have their aim and output reduced to like 5% of previously. Right.
• That stupid divebomb maneuver Dany did with Drogon didn't work in episode 4. But here is magically does. OK.
• Tyrion is now apparently about as 'smart' as Jon, for no apparent reason
• Arya spending ages standing and walking around the chaos for no reason. Scramble, damnit!
• Why did the Northmen join the Unsullied and Dothraki in pillaging the surrendered troops and city? They barely even acknowledge Dany's position, and are only there because of Jon. The Unsullied an Dothraki have years of loyalty with Daneyris, and will do whatever she says. The wary and distrusting Northmen are just suddenly going to get on the same wavelength as them, huh?
• Where exactly did those Dothraki come from anyway? I swear this many did not survive the stupid military maneuver in the Battle of Winterfell
• Again, did Arya not think to tell Jon, or anyone what she was up to? And she 'doesn't intend to go back', does she? Then why tf did they not show her parting with Sansa and Bran, given how much family is important to her. They didn't even show one bit of it.
• What was Arya's plan anyway? March right in to a battle-prepared and super-guarded keep and just have a go? She's not going to use any of her stealth or infiltration techniques like she did with Walder Frey? Nothing?
• Hearing the producers talk about what they were intending/their thought processes behind the episode made me want to chuck a rotten tomato at the screen
• They said in the last episode's explanation that Jon is weirded out being physical with Dany specifically because she's his aunt, but that is not communicated in the screenplay properly at all. On screen, he's just being weird for no apparent reason. The guy who chose to be with a sworn enemy in the form of a Wildling, suddenly cares about the abstract familial role of someone he didn't even know existed till just a few months ago, and didnt even find out about the relation to, till after months of banging her?
• Jaime fights way too badly for merely having had lost a hand

On thing I do like about this episode:

• The scene with Tyrion and Jaime. Makes a lot of sense, and really great acting by Peter Dinklage.

This episode had the writing sophistication of a kids cartoon.

I'm getting so disillusioned with stories, man.
People love Endgame, but I didn't think it was all that. Then, you see this whole 'the ending is terrible' thing happen so much, especially in video games (remember Mass Effect 3?). Then there's the entire clusterfuck that is the post-Lucas Star Wars films. And so many bad movies and TV shows...

How do you have this much time, and this much budget, and this much access to resources, and still write something this bad. Is it really that hard? (That's a genuine question, because I'm not a writer)

 

[igyman]

Are you saying her curiosity about sex was OOC, or her rejection of Gendry?

Her curiosity. I know, you can argue that it's something completely normal and not really OOC for anyone, but to me it seems as off and fanservice-y as the Jaime x Brienne scene from last episode. In this case it seems off considering Arya's character focus so far and the fact that she never displayed any romantic feelings towards anyone, yet this season tries really hard to invent an attraction to Gendry, which culminates in that sex scene and then disappears faster than Daenerys' character development. (Weirdly enough, that rejection was pretty in-character for Arya).

But merciful god, today's episode was so damn bad that I had brain cells die when when watching it

Pretty much. I also agree with all the points from your spoiler segment. Also, Euron Grayjoy wins the dumbest, most pointless side-villain award.

People love Endgame, but I didn't think it was all that.

Off topic, but I just thought I'd add a +1 to this point as well. I thought the movie was extremely boring for the most part.

How do you have this much time, and this much budget, and this much access to resources, and still write something this bad. Is it really that hard?

I'm not sure myself. It shouldn't be that hard with that big of a budget. People have been writing better quality fiction with budgets of 0$. Then again, we don't really know the details of D & D's deal with HBO.
All I can say is that this season seems like zero effort was spent on story, consistency and on respecting the characters - it's all shock value with little to no sense at all. It's almost as if they just didn't give a crap, since it's the final season. They knew people would watch it anyway and just didn't care beyond that. They already got their money out of HBO and who cares about anything else.
I fear for the part of Star Wars they end up handling.

 

[jigos]

In this case it seems off considering Arya's character focus so far and the fact that she never displayed any romantic feelings towards anyone, yet this season tries really hard to invent an attraction to Gendry, which culminates in that sex scene and then disappears faster than Daenerys' character development. (Weirdly enough, that rejection was pretty in-character for Arya).

I think the whole thing was perfectly in-character. Gendry was one of her few friends when she was younger, and not an unattractive lad too. As far as she's concerned, there was a very high chance that they were all going to die the next day, so to hell with it - might as well give it a go.
And there were no romantic feelings of any significance. She may have been fond of him slightly, but for her, this was just casual sex. It's poor Gendry that caught feelings hard. So there was nothing to 'disappear'.

All I can say is that this season seems like zero effort was spent on story, consistency and on respecting the characters - it's all shock value with little to no sense at all. It's almost as if they just didn't give a crap, since it's the final season. They knew people would watch it anyway and just didn't care beyond that. They already got their money out of HBO and who cares about anything else.

The producers don't seem like that kind of callous people. I think they cared, and they did, in fact, try -- but failed, because apparently, all the quality of the writing of the show came from George R.R. Martin's source material, and not the TV show's writing crew.

Relevant:

I fear for the part of Star Wars they end up handling.

100% this. I was hopeful before, but now I am very, very fearful

 

[jigos]

mfw finale

Spoiler

 

[igyman]

Meh.

I honestly don't have the strength or motivation to leave a more detailed impression of the finale and final season than that.

 

[Lynk Former]

...I haven't read any of the spoilers but I am aware of the situation with the final season of GoT... *looks around* should I put in the effort to actually watch this show after all that?

 

[igyman]

@Lynk Former You haven't watched the show at all, right? I'd say don't waste your time then. The show was pretty good while it was an adaptation of the books. As soon as the book material ran out, it went to shit. Overall, it starts with a bang and ends with a (admittedly very visually appealing) whimper.

Better just read the five books that are out and wait for the final two to be released.

 

[Lynk Former]

@igyman: Yeah, that seems to be the jist of what I've been hearing from general statements being made by fans around the net. I think I will end up reading the books at some point in the future once they're all released.

It's a damn shame though... things seemed to be going pretty damn well for a while.

 

[jigos]

I honestly don't have the strength or motivation to leave a more detailed impression of the finale and final season than that.

I think I will, if for nothing but the investment I had in the series throughout the years I watched it:

Spoiler

• The death of Dany was such bad writing. They purposely used the stupid 'characters become mute' trope to lead up to it. Jon and Dany have the first real conversation they had in the entire season, only here, at the end. And the conversation was still dumb - shes acting like she was justified from a moral perspective (as opposed to from a 'fuck everyone im the queen' or insanity perspective), and he doesnt mention the fact that the city SURRENDERED. It's just 'you killed heaps of people'.
• Drogon burning the throne made zero sense. he should have fried Jon. Bonus: Jon should have survived
• Whats the reason exactly for Sansa shutting her uncle up? Why shouldn't he, and in fact, everyone, have a go at tabling their proposal? Hell, IIRC that guy was imprisoned because of a Stark's actions (Robb's breaking marriage vows). So Sansa should damn well stfu and let him speak
• Bran: 'I cant be lord of Winterfell I'm the Three-Eyed-Raven' nek minnit: 'yeah bruh I'll be head of the entire bloody country no problem'
• That entire council process was ridiculous as fuck. One measly speech, and the regents casually are just like, 'yeah awight then', giving the literal ultimate power in the entire world to someone.
• The entire land just accepts a massive change in the most fundamental core government mechanic that's been present for literally millennia (i.e. hereditary monarchy), just like that. In two minutes. And Tyrion just declares it, like he has any lick of power whatsoever.
• I'm happy Sansa got the North. But, as above: secession, acquiesced to by all the other lords, just like that?
• Why do Sam, Arya, Bran, Brienne, and Davos get a vote? What are they even doing there at all?
• Personally, I don't necessarily mind the substance of the ending we received. What I do mind is the absolutely terrible writing that got us there. It undermines the ending and made it worth less as an experience. I felt emotions from watching it, but I am also shocked by how relatively weak they were - compared to what it should have been and also compared to other big moments in the show. I can only imagine what it could have been if the show's initial writing quality had persisted till the end.
• I like the anti-utopian message. I'm actually surprised it's there. I'd wager It's probably a preservation of vision from GRRM himself, who I suppose is concerned with great-literary-tradition themes, as opposed to the politics of the day. I'm sure the woke-o-sphere will be having a bit of a moan about it, lol

Also, relevant:

It's a damn shame though... things seemed to be going pretty damn well for a while.

I would actually advise the opposite, personally. I'd say do watch it, specifically because it's got immense cultural significance, and, the first 6 seasons are absolute top-notch, even seminal, TV.

 

[Lynk Former]

@jigos: Cultural significance?

And yeah, I was thinking of just watching the first 6 seasons.

 

[jigos]

It's an artefact of some significance in context of the current pop-culture era.

Also, I'm sure one can infer, but, being familiar with it will enable proper understanding of relevant references from people and other artefacts.

 

[Leon-McNichol]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1159518894209421

 

[jigos]

Spoiler